Peacedogman's Mark Marchman vs. Brian Russ of the BNR Metal Pages

Introduction: Hello metalheads and rockers! My name is Pete Haworth. Some of you may be familiar with my band LEGEND from the UK Channel Island of Jersey. We've been around for quite awhile, dating back to the very beginnings of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal movement. You can find information about us in just about any NWOBHM-oriented webpage. Well anyways, a few months back, I was asked if I would serve as a sort of "Master of Ceremony" in a discussion between two most knowledgeable music fans....Brian Russ of the famous BNR Metal Pages, and Mark Marchman from the Peacedogman.com webzine.

As a fan of all types of heavy music, I couldn't resist the opportunity to come up with some questions to hurl at these two monumental metalheads. Both of them have long expressed an interest in my band, as well as many of LEGEND's contemporaries back in those glorious early 80s years. As I took an extended look at what these two websites offer the metal community, I noticed some things. Brian's site is more structured and almost encyclopedic in nature. It is set up in a very intuitive way that makes it easy to find out about all different genres and categories of obscure metal bands. The Peacedogman site is more graphic and entertaining....an interesting blend of humor and a hardcore love for any heavy music, albeit punk, metal, or just straight-up rock 'n roll. Brian's site focuses on albums...whereas the Peacedogman folks seem to have a great love for demos and pre-releases. Looking over the dizzying amount of information present in both sites, it was a little challenging to come up with questions for these two....but I finally arrived at some that I thought would generate some sparks and debate. I hope you'll enjoy reading this as much as I enjoyed being a part of it. So let's get started....

Phase 1: The roots of metal.

Russ: Of course, SABBATH is the beginning and end, as far as primary metal roots and influences are concerned.

Haworth: So, that's where our story begins....so to speak?

Russ: I think so. Martin Popoff (a metal fan/writer I greatly respect) lists early albums by SABBATH, PURPLE, and URIAH HEEP as the three most important albums regarding the formation of metal, and apart from possibly substituting LED ZEPPELIN for URIAH HEEP, I’d have to agree.

Haworth: What about prior to those bands, Brian?

Russ: Earlier than that? Well, SABBATH had to be inspired by someone or something, but I’d have to plead some ignorance there, since that was well before my time and I’m not terribly familiar with 60’s music.

Marchman: THE YARDBIRDS and BLUE CHEER were both important. The YARDBIRDS were a band always trying to express that profound blues that obsessed them and break out of the mold that the recording industry forced them into….that tension makes stuff like “Smokestack Lightning” so great. All the early BLUE CHEER stuff is essential, too ….but I think the MC5 were one of the real sparks that got the whole thing going. “Kick Out The Jams” is such an explosive album…so much raw energy captured on tape for that one. Lemmy often cites them as the reason he was inspired to start up a band that was more over-the-top with MOTÖRHEAD.

Haworth: So, would you say that these bands pre-date the importance of SABBATH?

Marchman: I think the YARDBIRDS and THE BEATLES had quite an influence on SABBATH, back in those early days when they went by the name EARTH. The MC5 were just as important, in my opinion...and they came out around the same time as SABBATH....late sixties, give or take a year.There are a ton of early classics that I love from the 60s and 70s like TOAD, CAPTAIN BEYOND, SIR LORD BALTIMORE…but I think a few other crucial albums that really shaped the metal we know and love are “Kick Out the Jams”, THE JIMI HENDRIX EXPERIENCE "Are You Experienced?", MOUNTAIN “Climbing”, and, of course stuff like "Paranoid". SWEET’s “Desolation Blvd” was enormous, too..but that didn't come out until a few years later.

Russ: As for other early bands … bands like BLUE CHEER, CREAM, SIR LORD BALTIMORE, BANG, and others are also mentioned by Popoff, but I’m not so sure I’d categorize them as particularly influential.

Marchman: Indeed....none held a candle to my favorite arena-fillers like BLUES CREATION, NIGHT SUN, and LEAF HOUND...ha ha!. But I do think the CREAM had a major influence on all heavy music, Brian. BLUE CHEER too.

Haworth: Alright, let's shift gears a little.

Phase II - Stayers and Players

Haworth: Let's talk about some of the things that are related to the tons of music that you two have picked up over the years. Can you name some individuals that are so talented, they seem to create quality music throughout their entire career, lineup changes notwithstanding?

Marchman: That's a good one.

Russ: Well, for me first up would be Tom Warrior of CELTIC FROST. True, not every CF album was perfect, and his post-CF band APOLLYON SUN didn’t get the recognition I thought it deserved, but Tom’s a visionary, and I have high hopes for the proposed FROST reunion album as well as whatever else he has in the works. Another would be John Mortimer of HOLOCAUST, a band that started in the humble beginnings of the NWOBHM but has mutated to something quite different (yet not without nods to his past), and Mortimer has been the leader of the band throughout.

Marchman: Totally agree on John Mortimer. Actually, I was considering him to host this thing as a backup plan if Pete was too busy with LEGEND. Luckily, Pete was willing and able. But I have to disagree with you about Tom Warrior. I think "Morbid Tales" and "To Mega Therion" are absolute monster releases....great stuff. After that, the band slowly descended into total shyte, and the whole "Cold Lake" glam-rock thing had to be one of the worst rock calculations in history. What were they thinking??

Russ: Sorry Mark, I still think Tom's a great musician. "Cold Lake" isn't that bad. I'm also a big fan of the APOLLYON SUN stuff he did in the 90s.

Haworth: Who would you go with, Mark?

Marchman: Well, the obvious choice for me is Lemmy. He’s been the central figure in MOTÖRHEAD since the late 70s, and the band’s still cranking out quality releases like “Hammered”. You have to give props to Woody Weatherman from COC…he’s the only figure that stayed with the band from their scruffy punk beginnings to their current heavy sludgy incarnation. A more obscure one that comes to mind would be Steve Ramsey. All the bands he was in (SATAN, PARIAH, SKYCLAD) featured quality guitarwork, great riffs, NWOBHM vibe, and I think that’s a good indication of the quality of his involvement in a band.

Russ: Right you are on the choice of Lemmy. It’s interesting that you mentioned Steve Ramsey, since a name that came to mind for me was Martin Walkyier – SABBAT collapsed soon after he left, and the jury is still out on whether SKYCLAD will prosper without him. A few others that come to mind: RIOT (Mark Reale has survived more than 25 years), CANDLEMASS (Leif Edling runs the show, and also has had other bands (KRUX, ABSTRAKT ALGEBRA) with good albums), and Scott “Wino” Weinrich, who has had three good bands under his tutelage (most famously, THE OBSESSED) as well as serving time with ST. VITUS, always with consistently quality output...

Marchman: Yeah, two props to you on that one. First for the CANDLEMASS observation..."From the 13th Sun" is absolutely top-notch. Second, for using the word "tutelage" in a metal discussion.

Haworth: Since we're discussing guitarists like Ramsey and Weatherman, I'll use it as a lead-in to the next couple of guitar-oriented questions. First, does neoclassical guitar playing take the emotion and feel out of metal?

Marchman: Obviously the answer to that question could be either “yes” or “no” depending on the artist we’re discussing. I can think of many examples of the neoclassical guitar style sounding sterile and unexciting…like some kind of movie background music. On the other hand, I can think of just as many examples of underplaying….so called “feel” based players that basically solo by restating the chorus melody of a song, which is equally unexciting.

Russ: There is a fan base for Yngwie-style histrionics, but I’m not necessarily part of that fan base. I can greatly appreciate his skill, and I am not a Yngwie-basher who feels that he wanks to no end and can’t write a decent song, but in general I don’t get very excited from his work.

Marchman: I’d say that the key to a guitar sound is to move the listener in some way…making you feel excited, angry, moody, or whatever. That’s what it’s all about . I love the way ULI JON ROTH would infuse classical guitar style with nods to Hendrix in songs like “Crying Days” and “Sails of Charon”. Mike Sifringer from DESTRUCTION came up with some incredible classical-based guitar shred in “Reject Emotions” that still blows my mind. And Marty Friedman has always floored me with his ability to “explode on cue” in any song context…and his style often borrows from the neoclassical style among others. Gunter Maier from STYGMA IV is another one that comes to mind…their newest album “Hell Within” features tons of super-speed Michael Schenker-type guitar with some neoclassical influences, but never at the expense of the songs.

Russ: To me real metal needs a harder, angrier edge (musically, not necessarily lyrically), and while there certainly is dark classical music out there, that’s not what these guitarists seem to cite as influences. Excellent call on Uli John Roth, though, PD – I remember listening to his first two solo albums right after he left Scorpions, and he is an excellent, and very emotional, guitar player. So, to answer the original question, I would say no, it doesn’t necessarily take the emotion out of metal. It is simply one of many styles of metal, and one that, frankly, I think is underappreciated. What I mean is that I think there is a great potential for marrying classical and metal, and neoclassical soloing isn’t realizing that potential. A recent favorite band of mine these days is HOLLENTHON. Though their base is black metal (sort of, they aren’t really a true black metal band), they have very clear classical influences that are simply wonderful to listen to, and all while maintaining that dark style that I feel is essential to good metal.

Marchman: HOLLENTHON is cool stuff. We refer to them as "Indiana Jones metal" 'round the dog site.

Russ: Indiana Jones metal?

Marchman: Yeah, if you go back and listen to stuff like "Enrapture" and "Fire Upon The Blade", the orchestration sounds like the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" theme or something, like the "well of souls" scene, y'know? They do kick ass though, I like "Reprisal"; that's a great tune.

Russ: I'm gonna have to go back and listen.

Marchman: But anyway, guitar-wise…there’s a lot to be said for that blues-based “howling” guitar style like PRIEST’s “Beyond The Realms of Death” and LORD’s “Promises” and SAXON’s “747: Strangers In The Night”. I think that's my favorite metal lead style.

Haworth: This is good. Let's go with something more conceptually obscure, guitar-wise. Who do you guys think is the best and most original with, let's say, the tremolo bar?

Marchman: Lifeson does all kinds of wild whammy shit in "Limelight". And I could write a book about how cool VOIVOD is. How many bands have released as many consistent great albums as them? Not many! Now personally, I’m more of a wah-pedal fan myself…but there have been some great players that have used the bar creatively. The first one that jumps to mind for me is obviously HENDRIX and RITCHIE BLACKMORE. But some others that are less well-known would be Paul Schluter and Don Bakken from the band LAST CRACK. Their techniques with the bar as a riff-enhancing tool as well as for soloing made that band just stand out even more. The track “Saraboyscage” is still a scorcher! Doug Piercy really pushed the envelope on those ANVIL CHORUS demos back in the early 1980s…lots of creative guitar shred and whammy wildness Obviously the live version of “Sinner” from JP is a testament to the power of the almighty bar…almost like an out-of-body experience for me.

Russ: Not a whammy bar thing, but I have to mention ZAKK WYLDE if we're going to discuss effects. Now, he’s a fine guitar player, and a soulful singer and songwriter as he’s demonstrated with BLACK LABEL SOCIETY, but he has this tendency to overuse a particular “squeal” effect, an effect that sounds cool for about 10 seconds and then it becomes completely overdone.

Marchman: (laughs) I love Zakk, but you're right. What's that first song on "Blessed Hellride"...he hits that squeal like 63 times..?

Russ: "Stoned and Drunk"

Marchman: Yeah, that's it. Hey, Y’know who else was really good with that thing? BRAD GILLIS! Ever heard the live version of “Black Sabbath” he does w/ Ozzy on “Speak of the Devil”? Cool beyond belief! Hard to believe he went on to NIGHT RANGER after that.

Russ: Maybe it's somthing to do with Ozzy.

Marchman: Yup... I think that's it.

Phase III - Heady Metal

Haworth: Let's step the questions up another notch. Do lyrics really matter in metal? Is it more important to hear them or read them from a liner sleeve?

Marchman: It’s funny. I absolutely think they matter…but only if the music is good! For me, its like….I have to really dig the band’s sound, then I’ll check out the lyrics and that will give me the real vibe for what they’re all about. I think lyrics are most effectively delivered when doing jumps off the drum riser or inciting a riot in some way! Some of the hardest-hitting lyrics I’ve ever heard are from bands like DISCHARGE (“In agony they cry and scream / and children and children / skin peeled hanging in strips”) and ASSÜCK (“Enslaved by fairy tales, tribulation and dead end hallucinations….kneel before the altar of inequality”). I guess I like ‘em dark and to the point.

Russ: My first response to this was to say that lyrics are like the icing on a cake, but then I realized that it’s really the icing that’s the most important part of a cake to me, so the analogy fell through. Anyway … lyrics can matter, and they can make a good song better, but to me, they can’t carry a song by themselves. If I think about my favorite songs of all time, many of them I have no clue about what they are saying, and the rest of them are words or phrases that I might recollect or even like, but it isn't the basis for my attachment to the music. I listen to metal for the riffs, the rhythms, and even the voices, but not so much the words. If I read good lyrics of a song I like, so much the better.

Marchman: THE HIDDEN HAND albums with Wino have some really thought-provoking stuff on tehm. Plus, I’ve always had a soft spot for those first couple of THIN LIZZY albums….they’re so great on so many different fronts, with lyrics being one of them. Like the song “Dublin”….it’s like Lynott is sitting there on your couch telling you stories. Now, I can put up with dumb lyrics too….a lot of the NWOBHM stuff is downright embarrassing lyrically, but nobody cares because the riffs are so great, and it’s classic stuff. Probably “We Are The Road Crew ” is the best lyrically written metal song of all time, though.

Haworth: Why is metal seen as such an “angry” medium…and not one of “message” or “enlightenment”?

Marchman: You mean when we’re dead and gone, the cosmic visitors that find our civilization won’t judge us on “Whole Lotta Rosie”?

Russ: That's a real shame.

Marchman: Actually…I think a lot of that has to do with metal’s tough, blue-collar beginnings. Bands like SABBATH and PRIEST came from rough, industrial cities…and the metal was a form of dangerous rebellion through volume and the release of energy through the music. I mean, fine wine, great literature, priceless works of art…these things are often produced over years of artistic training, discipline and hard work. It takes discipline and hard work to produce quality metal as well….but this type of music is often spawned as a form of rebellion against aspects of civilized life and its authority figures... whether its parental, educational, or political leaders. Now, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t such a thing as “enlightening” metal music…for me stuff like early KINGS X, QUEEN, and BLUE ÖYSTER CULT have nothing but a positive effect on me, and I hear different stuff going on in their music any time I play it.

Russ: Mark is right, in that there is plenty of enlightening metal music out there to be found, but the popular image of metal has always been one of anger, or perhaps more accurately, rebellion. Why is this? Perhaps it’s due to the history of metal. Take a song like “Black Sabbath”. It’s a haunting melody, almost like a horror movie soundtrack, and it set a tone for metal, that tone being one of taboo subjects. In other words, that song just sounds like something one shouldn’t be listening to – hence, listening to it fosters a rebellious attitude. And the music itself – I’m sure every young kid from generations back reveled in listening to music that angered or annoyed his/her parents. Of course, some of us never grew up and still listen to that same music?. As time moves forward, the attitude is further ingrained in everyone’s mind – heavy metal is loud, mean, angry, rebellious music. That’s the popular viewpoint – again, as both PD and I have stated, it doesn’t have to be that way, and there are plenty of bands who present positive views in their music (I could cop out and just quote Christian metal bands, but there are certainly plenty of non-Christian bands who have positive and enlightening things to say), but the popular view of metal will never change.

Marchman: The only one that comes to mind for me obviously (besides the Scandinavian church burning schtick) the case of to the 1995 killing, torture, and rape of 15-year-old Elyse Pahler in CA. The three boys that killed her claimed that they were doing some kind of ritualistic ceremony inspired by SLAYER lyrics, and the lawsuits erupted. I believe they are still going on now. Speaking as a parent, it’s always been difficult for me to separate my feelings of sorrow for the parents from my distaste for blaming the situation on music.

Russ: I am not aware of a case where metal was ever proven to be a deciding factor in a murder or suicide. I had not heard of the Elyse Pahler case, though I do remember the fuss surrounding Judas Priest, and wasn’t Ozzy involved in something like this regarding “Suicide Solution” (which, if I’m not mistaken, is an anti-suicide song)?

Marchman: It’s like the boys that killed themselves listening to the “Stained Class” album back in the ‘80s. What about their state of mind? They were depressed, disturbed individuals with drug and alcohol problems and unstable family relationships. But the music becomes the scapegoat for the whole situation. Now, don’t get me wrong….we're talking about kids dying…so I can’t blame the parents for finding logical thought difficult. In the case of Elyse Pahler, it’s not something that’s in the cards when you decide to become a parent “what if my child is viciously murdered?” But the question is: what kind of deep-seeded psychological problems could cause three boys to do something like that? Don’t tell me it’s a SLAYER album, either…you bring the gun to school because you are pissed off at the world…not because some singer told you to do it.

Russ: I heartily agree with Mark. Parents can and must take a responsibility for teaching their kids right and wrong. I started listening to metal at around 17 years of age – perhaps older than some, but at no time did my parents ever concern themselves with what I liked (other than they hated the music itself!), because they knew that I knew what was right and wrong, and what was real and what wasn’t. For me it’s an escape in some respects but really it’s a hobby. Metal does not transmit subliminal messages to my brain to maim or kill, and it doesn’t transmit such signals to anyone.

Marchman: Depending on your state of mind, music moves you different ways. I’ve spent hours of my life listening to death metal, grindcore, doom, and just about all the other genres…and the music almost always improves my disposition, keeps me focused on tasks at hand, and gives my brain something to chew on while I’m working. The kind of people that kill because of a SLAYER album would kill because they didn’t like the magazine selection at the newsstand. Instead of suing the record industry, why don’t we channel the energy into parenting classes or mentor programs for young people that are this troubled before something terrible like this happens?

Russ: Those who clamor for censorship based on some random event like those above are missing the point entirely, and only interested in finding a scapegoat, either for personal absolution (“see, it’s not my fault my child did this, it’s the music”) or for crass political gain. Even if a person stood on a pedestal and proclaimed to the world “I killed someone because a song told me to”, does that really mean that the song is to blame? Of course not! I don’t profess to be an expert on the psyche of those who commit murder or suicide, but it’s pretty clear that their problems are far more deeply rooted than casually listening to a song.

Marchman: Yeah, give these kids the attention and environment they need, but let them keep their copy of “Hell Awaits”. It may be one of the only things they enjoy in the world! Besides, I don’t need anybody picking what music is “safe” and “not safe” for kids.

Russ: I'd say great minds think alike.

Marchman: I think that was the whole point of this thing, don't you?

**The web version of this article can be found at www.peacedogman.com/peacedogmanvsbnr**