MAY 2008 - Recently, Russ Cardona made some noise at our latest staff discussion, observing that with all the high marks we've thown to John Brenner's AGAINST NATURE, we've never featured John in any kind of interview. This was compounded by the fact that he's actually interviewed us recently as part of his fascinating 'Speak Critique' report (!), so we moved John to the top of the priority list for this update. Will Broadbent was more than pleased to set up an interview with John, and his admiration for Mr. Brenner's extensive catalog made for a superb exchange.

Will Broadbent: Hi John. Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions. In addition to all of the great AGAINST NATURE material you've been putting out in recent years, you recently recorded an amazing new album under the REVELATION moniker called "Release." What inspired this decision?

John Brenner: It's odd how these things happen with us...I don't really remember the specifics of it. Toreno from Leaf Hound Records asked early in 2007 about re-releasing the first two REVELATION discs, as well as the first release of a record we recorded in 1988. I mentioned to him that we'd be willing to record a new REVELATION disc, too, if he was interested in releasing it. He was, so we did. We hadn't really considered doing a new REVELATION record until I had things squared with Dennis Cornelius and Jim Hunter, that they wouldn't be doing anything as REVELATION and that everyone was ok if I reclaimed the band name. Dennis told me he "kept the band warm for me." I have great respect for Dennis and Jim. Now, this has put us in the odd position of having two bands with the same line-up. Eventually, we may resolve things into one name, but for now, I'm ok with two different names for the music we create. It's not as if we have any rules to follow.

Broadbent: Even though the same musicians (you, Bert Hall on bass and Steve Branagan on drums) are involved with both projects, there seems to be a subtle difference between the music of AGAINST NATURE and the new REVELATION material, but I can't quite put my finger on exactly what it is. Am I going crazy, or is there a different approach you bring to each band that makes it different?

Brenner: You're just crazy. No, you're not really. From the beginning of the idea, I knew that since AGAINST NATURE was beginning to explore a more 70s rock and progressive approach to making music, it would make sense to return to the old feeling of REVELATION for the new record. Most of those different approaches are a conscious decision: the composition and arrangement of the songs, the guitar sound, and the production. I kept "Never Comes Silence" in my head, and I asked myself, "what is the spirit of REVELATION, and how can I evoke that spirit again?" If we had used the same gear as with AGAINST NATURE and I had produced "Release" in the same way, there would still be a difference in the two, mostly in the songwriting. But that difference wouldn't be so pronounced. With AGAINST NATURE, I'm doing all the things that were percolating in those years I was away from heavy music: experiments, a wide range of influences, sounds, risks, with both failures and successes. The only rule for AGAINST NATURE is that the music must be heavy. For the new REVELATION record, I approached the music from the direction I think we were heading in early 1993. Much of the difference between REVELATION and AGAINST NATURE is instinctive--I just followed my gut feelings about it. And there won't be more than one Revelation record each year, if that. With AGAINST NATURE, we'll release as many records as we write, whenever we want.

Broadbent: As a big fan of your music, and the other bands that your label Bland Hand Records has brought to the table (ARGUS, CHOWDER, TORTURED SPIRIT, etc…), I certainly applaud you for making everything available to download so readily. What was the reasoning behind this decision? Was it a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em," response to Internet piracy, or was there more to it than that?

Brenner: Defeatism was never a part of my philosophy for the label, at least not an "if you can't beat them, join them" response. One of the most frustrating aspects of the old REVELATION was that we always had to wait so long for someone else to work for us, labels especially. What's the incentive to create if you know your destiny is in someone else's hands? My goal isn't to make money or to become popular; it never was. I just want people to listen to my music. The marketing and business attitude toward music just stifles my creativity. I don't care about release dates and targeted marketing and market saturation and all that business crap. That's anti-art. With the advent of the Internet and downloading music, it all became clear to me how to achieve my vision and my goals: give the music away. I'm in complete control of every aspect of the music this way, and we stand or fall on our music's merits. There's no one else to rely on or to blame but ourselves. With Bland Hand, there is no "music industry" or "music business" or other anti-art ugliness. The value of this music isn't monetary. There's only the music, and it's free. For me, giving away our music makes me free. Bands like CHOWDER, ARGUS, DWELL WITHIN, and TORTURED SPIRIT allowed me to help them by making their music available for free, as well. Helping them helps AGAINST NATURE and Revelation, because maybe a visitor to the web site will download everything. I want Bland Hand Records to be a repository of free music from many bands, and I'm adding a few more this year. Bland Hand is my chance to help my friends.

Broadbent: While you have all that wonderful music available for anybody to download for free, there is a link you can click on to accept paypal donations. Do you see much of a return from this, or must my faith in humankind remain non-existent?

Brenner : Keep your faith intact...or at least don't dismantle it yet! People do donate money to the label for the downloads, and I'm always pleased by that. Cynicism is so rampant in society today, and it rubs off a little even on me. But when people give us a gift of a few dollars, I understand that the gift contains not only money but also a heartfelt "thank you." Some people buy the CDs I occasionally produce and pay us double as a donation. That's amazingly flattering. My idea is to let people decide how much the music is worth to them, whether it's in terms of money, word-of-mouth promotion, or simply the incredible gift of devoting time to listening, when there is so much other music to listen to. I'm not making any real money, but I've been breaking even lately for the cost of the web site and the CDs and postage. If everyone who downloaded donated $2 to the label, I'd make a good amount of money, for some releases see hundreds of downloads. The money helps to keep everything going. I'm not poor, but the donations and CD sales do help to keep the label afloat more easily. Even when I lose money, though, I don't care, because making money isn't the purpose of the label. Some people have implied that I'm being naive, giving away something that people are willing to pay for. But I don't want to force people to pay to hear my music. It should be their choice. My gift has no strings attached.

Broadbent: How are you guys able to come up with such quality AND quantity in your music? Is it simply a matter of "being in the zone" in terms of your musical work ethic? I know, as a musician, I would have a hard time keeping up with such a prolific band, but you guys seem equally as committed to the music and have never failed to deliver great performances on the many projects you have put out in the last few years. Do you think that your creative well is capable of running dry?

Brenner: If the well does begin to run dry, then I'll just let it. But right now, we're definitely "in the zone" with writing and recording. A big part of this is that we record at home with our own recording gear. So whenever we feel we're ready, we can release new music. I feel like I've been cracked open these past few years: music is rushing in, music is rushing out. It's exhilarating. I'm usually 2 or 3 records ahead in my writing for AGAINST NATURE. Right now, I have two releases ready to be recorded (we're starting work on the first one this weekend). We're constantly challenging each other to make each song interesting, so that nothing is a throwaway. We never just go through the motions, even though our only incentive is our own drive and love of writing, recording, and playing. I have many ideas that we haven't even begun to explore yet. I want to do everything.

Broadbent: You were completely out of music for about 10 years, 1993-2003, if I'm not mistaken. What were you up to in that time? How did music play a role in your life during that period? And do you see the musical wave you've been riding in the last couple years as your way of making up for lost time?

Brenner: For those 10 years, I didn't listen to heavy music at all. I practiced playing classical guitar, listened to jazz and Indian music (among other music), and lived my life away from the whole heavy music scene. In 1999 or so, Bert and I began playing music together again, our improvised mish-mash we called "Music by and for Poets and Fascists." Not long after, I started listening to RUSH again...and then it was like an avalanche. I still like I'm being carried along by the wave, against my will. But I've let go, and I'm enjoying the ride. Music has always been a huge part of my life. Years ago, it was the biggest part. Today, I'm beginning to see how it fits into my personal cosmos, my whole life. I don't think I'm making up for lost time...the time wasn't lost to me. I don't regret being away from heavy music for a decade. The respite was healthy and gave me the time to get my life together. All this music coming out now...I think it's the result of all those years of listening, all the things that were building up over 10 years, all the new things I've learned and have become. That's one of the meanings of the new REVELATION record "Release." That word resonates with me, in all its varied meanings. For 10 years, I let the tap run open so all the muddy water could escape. The water is running clearer now.

Broadbent: In addition to recording all the time, it seems like you guys are always on the road, as well. Is it hard to make this schedule work and reconcile it with your every day life? I know that it's a challenge I've had to work out, for sure.

Brenner: It's hard for everyone, but we make it work out. I hate to turn down a show! It's easier for Steve and me because we don't have children. For most things, my philosophy is "if you want to make it happen, you'll find a way." People do this all the time, find a way to get or do what they want. If they don't, they probably didn't want it badly enough. There's always an excuse not to do something, isn't there? We're looking for excuses to do something.

Broadbent: I noticed that you handle a lot of the artwork and design for many AGAINST NATURE releases. What's your preferred medium? Is the art created specifically for the music? And if so, what goes into trying to capture the mood for each release?

Brenner: "Watery stuff" is my medium, and if I'm using my own work, I'll scan the paintings first and use Photoshop for the graphics. By "watery stuff," I mean anything for which you can use water as a medium. I'm no purist. Most of time, the art isn't chosen consciously for the music, although connections pop up afterward. I like that, going with my gut. I trust my instincts. It's when I overthink things that I make bad art or bad music. However, the choice of art for each release isn't random--I reject many ideas until I find something that feels right and that evokes something about the music or lyrics.

Broadbent: The Doom or be Doomed festival in Baltimore was an amazing moment for American doom metal. What was going through your mind when you and Josh were putting that together? And how great did it feel when it all came together?

Brenner: Josh and I decided from the beginning that we were doing the festival for ourselves and no one else. We choose bands that we wanted to hear, bands who were our friends, and bands who were of a certain mold. We wanted to focus on the MD bands that were part of the old scene, and we asked bands who we thought fit with the spirit of that scene: no rock star attitudes or drama. We also wanted a few bands to get back together for the festival, such as PENANCE, ASYLUM, and BLOOD FARMERS, because they belonged there. What went through our minds, mostly, was "what the hell have we gotten ourselves into?" We worked hard on all the details, on getting everyone on the same page, on making all the bands happy. We knew the people who came to the festival would take care of themselves, so that wasn't really a worry. I think I slept 8 hours in 3 days. When we saw, after the first day, how smoothly things were going and how much fun everyone was having, we knew everything would be ok. There were no incidents of note at all over the three days: no fights, no problems, no destruction. Just 24 loud, heavy bands and over 100 devoted fans. It felt great as it was happening, but when it was over, Josh and I went through a kind of withdrawal, as if someone was suddenly missing from our lives. We wanted that good feeling to last forever. That's ridiculous, isn't it?

Broadbent: I was feeling the exact same thing once it was over! The "Declaration of Doom" show you have planned at the Sidebar in Baltimore on July 5th sports a great line-up as well. Do you think you guys have it in you to do another weekend long DOBD fest sometime in the future?

Brenner: Another weekend festival? I don't think so. We scaled back for the Declaration of Doom festival and have concentrated only on working bands who are currently playing live and releasing music. This is the distilled version of what might have been DoBD II. That weekend last year took a lot out of us, emotionally and physically. And neither Josh nor I are ones for nostalgia and pointlessly trying to recreate glories of the past. Let DoBD stand as it is--we're on to new things now. The more DoBD festivals we'd host, the more we'd have to water down the line-up with bands we don't know personally or with bands whose music is beyond what we think fits our vision. DoBD doesn't have to recur every year, as do many festivals. Last year was a once-in-a-lifetime concert. If we ever host another weekend festival, we may just invite prog bands for something entirely different.

Broadbent: What is on the horizon for AGAINST NATURE/REVELATION? Anything big you'd like to announce/promote?

Brenner: It looks like REVELATION is going to play 3 shows in Japan in July this year. (I can't believe I just typed that.) You (OGRE) and the BLOOD FARMERS were just there, and now we're going. How did all this happen? As well, the new REVELATION record "Release" should be out on Leaf Hound Records in May, in addition to our unreleased record from 1988. AGAINST NATURE will begin working this weekend on our next record. I don't have a title for it yet; it may be called "Accumulus." We have two more releases, after this one, planned for 2008. After that, who knows? Another REVELATION release? Three more AGAINST NATURE releases every year? The horizon is vast and endless.

Broadbent: : That's great news for fans of heavy music! Thanks for all the great answers, John. Have a blast in Japan! You're going to love it.

Brenner: Thank you for the support!

For an extensive catalog of downloads and information on John's doom and progressive projects, visit www.againstnature.us. Be sure to check out REVELATION's MySpace page at myspace.com/revelationdoom and AGAINST NATURE's at myspace.com/againstnature.

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